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Tipple at Rockdale?

 
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7: 40 pm    Post subject: Tipple at Rockdale? Reply with quote

Looking at aerial images from the early 50's, I noticed a trackside structure on the south side of the main at Rockdale that looks like a tipple. One image also shows a string of hoppers there. If this is a tipple, what mine did it serve?

Also, just east of Rockdale, I found a truck dump track that curves south from the main going east bound. And in the same hollow, slightly farther east is evidence of another truck dump, curving south going westbound. Earlier topos show a two track siding between these two truck dumps but they don't show on the aerials as early as 1950. I assume these would have been for the strip mines just to the south. Anybody have any additional info on these?

These are the only evidences of P&WV-served mining in WV that I can find during coffee breaks.
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Eric Schlentner
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PWVJer



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 946

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 12: 08 pm    Post subject: Rockdale Mine Operations Reply with quote

Have not un-covered any Archive Materials in/about the Rockdale area.
A good chance at some point we will find/re-cover some additional info.
... still have 10 or so banker-storage box's we have not looked/sorted thru.
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 2: 52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you run across some Rockdale data.... I've run across some additional sketchy info. The tipple and spur(s) were located 0.1 mile east of Rockdale proper at Louise - basically the same area.

I came across one reference that Louise was a Bertha-Consumers company town hence explaining the tipple. However I can find no reference to it in the WV mine database or GIS maps. I think it's more likely that if there was a tipple, it may have been for the large Gilchrist/Labelle #3 mine whose northern extent was in the hill above the south end of Louise. There's no historic data or owner info that I have found yet as the mine probably finally played out in the '20s. A tipple could have been fed by truck or conveyor.

As for the truck dump spur, that may have been either a short spur for holding maybe five or six cars or so, or the short section that remained of a double ended spur. The truck dump was in operation approximately from about 1951 to 1954 and was probably for the stripping of the outcrop around the hillsides.

Here's a marked up topo image:


Not shown is the two-track siding shown on earlier topos between the west and east spurs. The fact that topos aren't overly accurate when it comes to railroads could explain it.

Many questions, no answers....
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Eric Schlentner
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4: 26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And a possible answer to the supposed tipple.....

The Gilchrist Mine aka Labelle No. 3 was started by the Gilchrist family by 1910, taken over by the West Virginia Pittsburgh Coal Co, then Consumers Fuel Co, then Bertha-Consumers Co through possibly into the 1940's (the dates aren't clear on the surveys). Location given as Louise, OH in some historical records. This is all a logical assumption based on what I can find online.
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PWVJer



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11: 33 am    Post subject: Louise & Cross Creek Mines 1&2 Reply with quote

... I think ???Louise Mine @ MP. 88.04 and
Cross Creek #2 Mine @ MP.88.16
Cross Creek # 1 Mine @ MP. 88.95 may have been Strip-Operations,
Truck-dump, to Sorting Tipple to hopper cars.

These small coal operations look to have started maybe early 1937-38' ?
I do recall AFE and AFR's related to some track & ROW work.
Also, a few minor hopper derailment reports mid-1950's.

...will take a lot paper-work searching of files to re-discover them.
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1: 29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll see if I can decipher their locations via track map. Then plod on eastward into PA.

There was quite a bit of mining in the Cross Creek district in WV, mostly to the south of the main. The bulk of it went via conveyor to barge or to the Panhandle since P&WV was a relative latecomer through the area. Weirton Steel did quite a bit of mining in that area early on but I think that went by conveyor or truck. They then sold or leased most of their holdings and got out of the mining business by the thirties, I think. The Panhandle did have a branch up Buffalo Creek (Buffalo Creek District, the next watershed to the south) to service some of those mines.
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camp car bill



Joined: 11 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2: 54 pm    Post subject: Re: Louise & Cross Creek Mines 1&2 Reply with quote

pwv jer



Welded on frog in switch in 1967 just east of Louise,which at that time was called Helen Mine Switch.The track took off to south of main track and was good for about two freight cars.I do not know when switch was taken out.

Bill[/quote][/list][/code]
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8: 01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Bill. I can't find any information on Helen Mine i.e. owners, records, permits, etc. I'll keep digging, though.
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Rich_S



Joined: 23 Aug 2011
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Location: Baden, PA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10: 39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jayrod, Just looking at the area via Google Earth, Elm Ave. off Louise Street follows the tracks for a short distance to the East, then heads down into the woods terminating about 600' off the main line. You have to wonder, why did they build a road into the woods? Is that the possible location of the Helen mine loadouot?

What's really interesting is Bing maps calls Elm Ave. Doman Street and also shows it heading off into the woods and just terminating?
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9: 56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,
The extended Elm St. was for access to the truck dump, same spur as what Bill refers to as Helen Mine switch. The tipple was west of Main St. where there's now a clump of trees. There's a website called Historic Aerials(?) where you can view this stuff when you're bored. I'd post a link but i'm typing with my phone.
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Rich_S



Joined: 23 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10: 24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jayrod said Rich,
The extended Elm St. was for access to the truck dump, same spur as what Bill refers to as Helen Mine switch. The tipple was west of Main St. where there's now a clump of trees. There's a website called Historic Aerials(?) where you can view this stuff when you're bored. I'd post a link but i'm typing with my phone.


Eric, I'm familiar with Historic Aerials, I've used that site and Penn Pilot when I was creating my Montour route for Rail Works Train Simulator.

The only problem with Penn Pilot and as the name suggests, it's just historical aerials of Pennsylvania and some of the older photographs have very low resolution.

Also FYI, Elm Ave and the truck dump were East of Main Street in Louise, WV. :D
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 2: 33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct. The truck dump is east of Main St. To make sure we're all on the same page, the "possible" tipple for the Louise Mine and the truck dump would be two different load-outs.
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Eric Schlentner
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1: 40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of this may be figured out. I'm assuming the Helen Mine is what I'm calling the truck dump just east of Louise. That makes sense though I can find no info in the WV state mine records for a Helen Mine in Brooke County. The official name could have been something else. The 1954 aerial image shows 6six empty hoppers parked there which is probably at capacity for loading.

It appears that Bertha-Consumers Coal bought or leased all or part of Gilchrist #3. Odd that there are no known maps of the mine while under Bertha's control. This info comes from looking at adjacent mine maps. That could explain what appears to be a tipple in Louise or the "Helen Mine" dump. Or....

Per Bill's WV Mine post, Ollette Mine did exist, north of Louise, almost two miles up St. Johns Rd. The truck tipple at the mine head appears to have been at the end of the present Rainy Rd. Ollette closed in 1951 or so and the truck tipple at the mine head was removed by 1957. FYI: St. Johns Rd. intersects Cross Creek Rd. about 100' east of the Louise St. bridge over Cross Creek at Louise. Could Ollette have owned the tipple?

So, my next question is, where the heck was Ollette Mine switch?

Sure would be nice to gawk at track charts from various years if they still exist. That would certainly help.
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camp car bill



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6: 14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jayrod,

a PWV time table might be of help.The Bridge Camp was cut out on a spur track off Rockdale side track on the west end,just west of double track bridge.This was late in 1951 and do not know name of spur track.Spur was very close to Cross Creek Road. No Work Train Order for 1951.

Bill
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5: 10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill,

That may have been the Arnold Mine spur. Looking at a track chart from 1949 and 1952 aerial images, here's what I figured so far:



The Kumer Coal spur may be what you call Helen Mine. The dotted line is what I think there was a continuation of the track extant in the early WPT days for an earlier tipple. Again, just a guess.

I've added the Cliftonville Mine, also. The track location is a guess since not much info is available after the infamous riot there in 1922. The coal camp of Cliftonville hasn't existed since probably the '30s. All the houses were torn down or possibly decayed away except one - #36 - which is still a residence.

Cliftonville spur was about MP 87, Dubena Coal spur was at MP 87.77, Kumer approximately 88.5, Arnold at about 89.5.

I've also added rough dates that I know the loadouts existed.
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camp car bill



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5: 34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jayrod,

I can only tell you the names of places when I was working.A lot of times we were told to work by nick names not mile posts.One odd one was Mad Dog Crossing.

Bill
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Longview Station



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1: 02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally located a elderly trackchart that shows many of the spurs west of Avella and the customers on those spurs. Going west from Cliftonville there were two customers between Mile Post 87 and 88. Ferguson Coal had a spur that circled out to the tipple where there looks as if there were 4 tracks, the spur returned to the main where another spur branched out and dead ended for Verona Coal. Down at Louise another spur ballooned for Bertha Coal. It also had a west main track switch. Approaching Rockdale Follansbee Coal and a short spur with 2 tracks. I'm not sure the exact year of this track chart, but it still shows trackage into the train shed in Pittsburgh
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 6: 02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info on those charts. Any way you can scan and email? I have charts copped off the Alphabet Route site from 1949 that have helped. I also ordered Worley's timetable book. That should help pinpoint most of the spur locations.

Mad Dog Crossing... I like that one.
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Rich_S



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5: 37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jayrod, Did you receive the timetable book yet? Anyone who does not have this book, in my opinion, get it. A lot of good info in that book.
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jayrod



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 9: 39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, got it. Also picked up the WPT book. First order of business will be to make a list by MP of the locations of all the sidings. Second will be to figure out where the MPs were and place them on a map. Prior to the Connellsville extension, MP 0 was Pittsburgh, after it was Connellsville. Third will be to scour all the aerial images I can get my hands on and make some guesses. It'll be a fun little side project.
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Hi-Line Fan



Joined: 08 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1: 41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you guys are interested, I have timetables from 1935, 1941 and 1956 I can scan as PDFs. Be glad to share.

Chris
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8: 17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the offer, Chris. Howard's book has all of them so I'm good. JZ may be able to use them for this site if he doesn't have them already.
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PWVJer



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9: 58 am    Post subject: P&WV Rockdale & TT info Reply with quote

Thanks, the Hi-Line collection has original(s) P&WV TT's
Number 17 thru 27, plus a few from the WSB & WPT era.

JZ.
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