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FM H 20-44 model
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PWVJer



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 945

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4: 47 am    Post subject: FM H 20-44 model Reply with quote

Some AC&Y fans/modelers(Bob L. & Dave) are also working on this.
If we find any good detailed drawings will pass them along.
E-mail received....

{Hi folks,
Thought P&WV fans would have interest in the possible production of a F-M H20-44 model in HO-scale.
We would really like to find more detailed drawings. Those found in the AC&Y Archive collection are posted below. Any help is appreciated!
Subject: F-M H20-44 Drawings

Photo E-mail View slideshow | Download images
Hi Dave,

This is further your exchanges with Tom Davidson regarding the F-M H20-44 diesel road-switcher.
As Tom outlined, there has been only a single commercial HO scale model of the Fairbanks-Morse H20-44 heavy duty road switcher brass model.}
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PWV101
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Apr 2005
Posts: 157
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 11: 49 am    Post subject: Our Choice for FM Models Reply with quote

Here are our choices if the FMs are to be reproduced in any gauge.





_______________________________________________________

P&WV # 54 is a H-20-44 phase I unit
slight-sloped front-end, rounded cab windows, no louvers on battery box's

P&WV #71 is a H-20-44 phase II unit
straight/flat front end, square cab windows, louvers on battery box's
P&WV initials on long hood side.

*these are just a few exterior quick-glance look/changes,
all units received Rook applied full hand-rails by late 1956-early 57'
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11: 22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit more detail on spotting: As delivered, "Phase 1" units also had rounded cab corners, large decorative headlight mounting plates, single chime horns, and the cab side sheet sloped slightly forward towards the battery box. Somewhere along the way, some of the ph1 units got the 5 chime horns, others retained the single chime until absorbed by N&W. All the aesthetic changes to the "Phase 2" configuration were made by FM to save on cost -round edges and sloping bits takes more labor and wastes material.
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Eric Schlentner
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PWVJer



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 945

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11: 45 am    Post subject: ...few more Reply with quote

Yep!
.....and dont't forget the #50-51-52-53, all came from the factory with
air/fuel tank cover-skirts. These lasted for only a very short time
before they(P&WV) were all removed and discontinued by FM.
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Blane



Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 25
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8: 35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What model and make of 5-chime horn did the P&WV use? I was wondering if a shell for an H-20-44 could be drawn up using a CAD program and then produced through 3D printing. Depending on how in depth it's done, a new frame could be made for it but designed to accept a commercially available drive. Through 3D printing different production phases and variations could be offered as well. I found a link that has dimensions for the H-20-44 which are hopefully accurate.

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20FM%20H20-44.HTML
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Blane
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Cameron Wolk



Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6: 13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Blane"]What model and make of 5-chime horn did the P&WV use? I was wondering if a shell for an H-20-44 could be drawn up using a CAD program and then produced through 3D printing. Depending on how in depth it's done, a new frame could be made for it but designed to accept a commercially available drive. Through 3D printing different production phases and variations could be offered as well. I found a link that has dimensions for the H-20-44 which are hopefully accurate.

http://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20FM%20H20-44.HTML[/quote]

Hi Blane, both the P&WV and AC&Y H20-44s used the Nathan M-5 as their primary horn. However I do have reason to believe that some other units may have had Leslies or Nathan M3-Hs as some photos shows. Hope this helps you out,

Cameron
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PWVJer



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 945

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9: 14 am    Post subject: ...FM horns Reply with quote

...and, a nice view of (all) the P&WV H-16-44's that came
from Beloit, factory installed.

Link:
http://www.thepwvhiline.com/PWVRareDetailedImages/PWV_93_FM_H16_44_Summer_1963_Cab_Crop_Web.html
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1: 29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, always refer to photos for a specific engine and time frame. The early FM's were delivered with single chimes, the last with five chimes and most, if not all, it seems, were converted to five chimes during some point in their careers.

We've been searching for FM factory drawings so they can be redrawn in 3D. I think that's the only way to make an accurate model. The other alternative is 3D laser scanning of the unit down in Galveston as it's fairly close in layout to the P&WV units once you take off the air intake shield that was installed by Southwest Portland Cement. $$$$$!
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Eric Schlentner
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Rich_S



Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 253
Location: Baden, PA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3: 10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does everyone always forget about us N scale guys :D At least Bachmann released a H16-44 in N scale. I wonder if you HO guys buy lots of the HO H20-44, will they create one for N scale :D :D

My H16-44 is lonely :D





Those who know me, know I'm just joking, but I would like to see
a H20-44 in N scale.
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Rich S.
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4: 14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The good news is, with a vector drawing, it can be scaled as needed. Draw it once, print any sized model. 3D printing resolution is getting to be fine enough to consider N scale. Now, let's find those factory drawings drawings!
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Eric Schlentner
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Rich_S



Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 253
Location: Baden, PA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5: 59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"jayrod said" The good news is, with a vector drawing, it can be scaled as needed. Draw it once, print any sized model. 3D printing resolution is getting to be fine enough to consider N scale. Now, let's find those factory drawings drawings!


Eric, I think we are there when it comes to 3D printing. Some of
the N scale stuff I've seen over at Shapeways looks pretty good.

http://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/printing-a-fairbanks.65218/

http://www.shapeways.com/product/QH7XJV3TD/n-scale-fm-h-12-44?li=shop-results&optionId=43340812

This locomotive was printed in what they call "FUD", but it's my
understanding there is a new printing material with even finer
detail available.

Now get busy with those drawings :D
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Rich S.
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Cameron Wolk



Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3: 36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Ebay I recently spotted a specification card made for P&WV #50. Could anyone tell me what is the purpose of these cards let alone know if this is an authentic find. I'm thinking about purchasing the item,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pittsburgh-West-Virginia-Railway-Locomotive-No-50-Fairbanks-Morse-Company-/231732965593?hash=item35f45c70d9:g:YOoAAOSwYHxWH~h3

Cameron
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PWVJer



Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 945

PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 7: 58 am    Post subject: Spec. card Reply with quote

Yes, they are real and a bunch were printed by FM Co.
Advertising for most all the Power & R.R.'s Fairbanks Morse built/had
orders for....
P&WV cards in the Hi Line collection:
# 50-51-52 single units (One with both units #'s)
#53
#54
and one with both units #54-55.

$12.99+ a little steep... average price on the net and at R.R.
shows is about $5.00 ea.
Link:
http://www.thepwvhiline.com/PWVFairbanksMorsePower/index.html
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Blane



Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 25
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7: 33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While doing an e-Bay search for an Alco Models FM H-20-44, I noticed that CMR Products now sells a polyurethane shell for such an engine in HO scale. Unfortunately, this is from the same company that was originally Big Dawg Originals but is now labeled as Putnam Locomotive Works. I don't want to start drama around this company given its highly controversial status and behaviour in the hobby, but it has been known for multiple infringements of intellectual property theft as well as being a poor quality resin casting. Given that no known line drawings of the prototype H-20-44 are known to exist, my assumption is that the casting is based off the Alco Models brass unit produced more than 50 years ago (a post on the AC&Y forum about this model also makes such a mention). Given how I personally feel about this company, I will not be purchasing their shell but that's just my own opinion. Something I found odd in the e-Bay listing was that it says the recommended chassis for the shell is a Walthers H-10-44. From what I remember, the H-10-44 is a different length than the H-20-44 and also uses AAR Type A trucks instead of AAR Type B trucks (truck centers may be different as well).

I still have hope for a correct H-20-44 model in the near future as I feel it's an interesting yet often neglected prototype locomotive that's just begging to be modeled. In the meantime, I'll keep trying to figure out some way of making this dream a reality.
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Blane
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8: 56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An H-20-44 shell ain't gonna fit properly on an H-10-44 frame without looking a bit silly or a having to do a pant load of frame extending. It'll look like Thomas the Tank Engine morphed into a diesel.
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Eric Schlentner
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
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Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10: 13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a look at the shell. Urethane is a hefty material to try to cast fine detail with and it shows in the thicknesses. It could be a starting point for a PH II though - replace the steps, the vent slots above the carbody doors are in the wrong spots and it's missing the three toward the cab not to mention the screened grill by the compressor just in front of the cab. Most of the details like markers and what-not are a little heavy handed. If detail parts were available elsewhere you could make a project out of it.

Concerning the Walthers H-10-44 chassis, the truck centers are 3'4" too close, the frame is 2'2" too short, and the trucks are incorrect.

Not sayin' ya couldn't do it, but it'll take you a while....
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Eric Schlentner
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7: 49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To satisfy my own curiosity, I've contacted a laser scanning company to see if I can get some sort of WAG at what it would cost to scan a H20-44 with enough detail to produce molds or 3D printing. I'll post any results of our conversation that has any value.
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Eric Schlentner
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Rich_S



Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 253
Location: Baden, PA

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6: 34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eric, A drawing that can be used by Shapeways for 3D printing is the way
to go. I've seen a video where the guy used Google Sketchup to create this
type of drawing. The plus side of using a drawing that can be used by
Shapeways, it can be re-scaled to any model railroad scale from G to Z.
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Rich S.
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5: 12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I'm working with approximates here....

The ex-AC&Y #505 in Galveston is the most "generic" of the three H20-44s in existence. The other two are early UP units more heavily modified by SWPC. Scanning #505 would cost about $2,000 to $2,500 (likely closer to $2K since the local TruePoint guy is close by) assuming the museum will work with you. This is before you get the 3D wire frame CAD file by TruePoint. I'll have an approximate price for that next week. That CAD file will have to be modified by someone other than TruePoint to remove details not needed, add ones that are and arrange it to be compatible with either Shapeways or a mold milling machine. The end file will be scalable to any ratio. I have know idea what the Shapeways costs would be in any scale. I'd leave that to others to determine.

If you wanted to put it into production, I'd suggest doing a complete kit. You could probably design a frame and truck sideframes, etc. and come up with a drive train, weights, etc.

Keep in mind, everything has/is an upfront cost and you better determine your market and price point before you start lest you bust your bank account and be stuck with a bunch of models.

Personally, I don't think it will be economically feasible but I could be wrong.
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Eric Schlentner
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WM Historian



Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 39
Location: Finleyville, Pa.

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6: 58 pm    Post subject: 5 Chime Air Horn Reply with quote

If I had to make a educated guess........not having a good close-up view of the rear of these horns, I would say these are Nathan Model M-5 (5 Forward Bells). If a rear view was available, it should show NO external pneumatic supply lines to each horn assembly from the base, air was supplied thru the base/bracket to each of the 5 horn assemblies.

The reason I point to the pneumatic supply lines for reference is.........the predecessor to the Model M-5 was the H-5 which was discontinued because of problems (breakage of the supply lines - vibration wear and/or absent-minded shop personal)......usually vibration in the horn assembly.

I base my opinion about the 5 Chime Horn on my research into the WM Ry.....which used the same type of horn (M-5) on its Road Freight diesel locomotives. The early models (1950) were equipped from the builder with the H-5......later replaced with the M-5 from Nathan at no charge.


David J Dudjak
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10: 09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting tidbit about the horns. On a side note, the easy way to tell the difference at a distance - the bells ended in the same plane on the H5 (necessitating the individual copper tubes to the air chambers) where on the M5, the air chambers were in the same plane on a cast manifold.
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Eric Schlentner
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Blane



Joined: 23 Dec 2014
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Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5: 30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did a quick eBay search for P&WV items and came across this custom-built H-20-44 with DCC & Sound in HO scale. Looks interesting and thought other members may be interested in it

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Pittsburgh-and-West-Virginia-Railway-H20-44-71-KitbashWalthersDCC-Snd-A-1-USED/173359838078?hash=item285d0d337e:g:SPYAAOSw4-laiEqQ
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Blane
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
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Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8: 41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've either seen this before or one just like it. It's passable at a quick glance but if you stop and look at it, it's off in oh so many ways.
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Eric Schlentner
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Dave Stanton



Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Location: North Strabane

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6: 15 pm    Post subject: H-20-44 Reply with quote

I was looking at the Shapeways web site. I see they have loco shells for the H-10-44 and the H-12-44. Has anyone looked at this company for the H-20-44 shells. The price for the other two were very reasonable. Both were HO scale.
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jayrod



Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Akron, OH

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10: 58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

Shapeways would be a good way to go. However, you gotta have 3D drawings. Since no FM drawings have surfaced to use as a reference, your mostly stuck with a laser scan or a couple weeks of detailed measuring of #505 . Ref the thread on laser scanning a couple threads down from this one.
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Eric Schlentner
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