The P&WV Hi-Line

[WM Historian]

WM Western Division "NOTICE" Dated October 27, 1960: P&WV Diesel Locomotive #64 had pressure maintaining feature removed and was applied to P&WV Diesel #71 of the same date.

Question: Why would the railroad remove this feature from the #64?

The basic idea behind the pressure maintaining feature was better train handling on descending grades, this combination with the use of DYNAMIC BRAKE, was to eliminate the need for retaining valve use.

Since the #64 and #71 were road freight locomotives and in use on the Rook-Connellsville mainline with its grades.......what was the logic behind the removal?

Cost to equip a additional unit?.....Change in assignment of the #64?....or some other reason.


David J. Dudjak

[PWVJer]

Interesting FM data. Did not know that.
We have very little shop record(s) data on the
maintenance of the railroads FM fleet.

Some speculation...???? could be that unit was headed to the back-shop
for it's 200,000 mile inspection and general overhaul. A two-week
job if all went well, and no additional mechanical work needed.
With pairs FM units receiving cycled shop-work, one can understand
that a Train-Masterer/Foreman of Engines might want the rest of his small fleet in prime working
condition to handle the traffic presented.

... of note, #63 #64 & #65 were part of the last group of FM's to receive
full MU (nose-hood) connections. Completion Date? after 1961???
Also, Operations & Maintenance reports (Hi-Line Image Collections) almost always show these unit(s)
placed on the Head-End or Trailing 3-4 unit sets.
... Train operation reports/dispatcher reports 1961-1964 indicate
these same units spent considerable time on the Pgh. Div.
Betsy Mine, Hopedale Transfer, and Mingo Transfer, where for the most part,
only two(2) good MU units were needed.

Again Dave, just a bit of conjecture/speculation based on some of the Archive Materials in hand.

[jayrod]

I'm by no means an air brake expert - I know just enough to be really dangerous. I find it odd that they would do that - would it be a bit of a plumbing job to achieve less functionality? I would assume that you'd want the same appliances on your locomotives to avoid special handing considerations or characteristics. Could it have something to do with the MU conversions? As built, they would have had 6SL brake valves without the MU valve. Hmmm... a good mystery.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[WM Historian]

Were all the P&WV FM's brake schedule - as built - 6-SL?

The pressure maintainng feature as applied to all WM Road Diesels starting in late 1955 were for brake schedule 24-RL.

The changed from what I have researched is the DS-24 brake valve in the cab.
You can go off into the weeds and have your eye's glaze over about the subject of air brakes.

This modification in my opinion was not costly, per unit, to either railroad.

WM records show #71 making numerous trips with other FM's to Cumberland, Md. starting October 1961

The #64 is not one of them, WM's operating practice was to have all locomotives equipped with the pressure maintaining feature (aka: flat maintaining).

A concern to the WM was the descent of Big Savage Grade (Deal to Cumberland) at 1.75%, that all operating units be so equipped.

This to speed up train operations in general, and eliminate the use of retainer's.

Included would be the P&WV FM Diesels once they started running thru.

The P&WV FM's were assigned to Trains AJ-12 (East) and return on AJ-1 (West).

You would have to check your records to see if #64 had the 24-RL at that time.


David J. Dudjak

[jayrod]

I would go out on a limb and say it's possible that when MU capability was installed, they could have been changed from 6SL to 24RL. It would make sense to me. Of course, again, I'm assuming that they originally came with the older 6SL though I believe 24RL was available. Changing the plumbing and associated accoutrements wouldn't have been difficult.

Are their any old heads still hanging around that can shed some light on this?

You're right about air brake info - it can numb your brain really fast.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[Rich_S]

It was my understanding the P&WV FM fleet could not be MU'ed with units from other manufacturers. I was under the impression FM units had air controlled throttles? EMD, GE and ALCO use four electric controlled valves (A,B,C D) in the governor to control the diesel engine RPM. I do not remember off the top of my head the various RPM settings for A, B & C valves, but D value alone is what shuts the engine down when the throttle handle is moved to the stop position.

I've never operated a locomotive with a 24L brake handle, but we still have plenty of 26L equipped locomotives on the railroad. I can tell you every 36 months we have to do a air brake change out as far as values, filters, magnet valves and part of the change out is the handle set.

The question I wonder, will a 6SL brake valve pipe up to a 24L brake valve? Is the pressure maintaining part in the brake valve or under the floor in the equalizing portion?
_________________
Regards,
Rich S.

[jayrod]

I do remember about FM's not being compatible. P&WV units were not originally equipped to MU. After 1961 is when you see the plethora of hoses hanging off the pilots so ya, they were probably air controlled throttles. I assume that when MU capability was installed, it would have had to have been compatible if P&WV units were used with other roads power. But... I think P&WV power running on WM would have run straight through with no additional power added thus not having to deal with equipment incompatibilities. I'm not overly familiar with operations - interchange was generally made at Bowest. If power ran through farther east it was probably all P&WV. I don't recall ever seeing a mixed consist. I'm sure JZ can shed more light on operations.

Both the 6-SL and 24-RL had lapping capabilities hence the "L" in the designation.

I do know that there were some '50's locos out there with 6-SL/SA-6 installations that were replaced with the 24-RL leaving the 6 series distributing valve the same. The major difference was in the operation. I don't know the details.

And like I said previously, I know just enough about air brakes to be dangerous. For all I know, I'm talking through my hat. But I s'pose I'll be gettin' me some learnin'.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[jayrod]

Oh ya, to answer your question about the pressure maintaining part... I dunno.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[WM Historian]

All P&WV units east to Cumberland and later to Hagerstown , records show no mixing of P&WV/WM power.

Total Units on Run Thru's: 4 units - 8000HP (P&WV)
5 units - 7500Hp (WM)



David J. Dudjak

[jayrod]

Getting a bit off-topic, but... Educational reading for some day when you're really, really bored....

Everything you ever wanted to know about 24-RL: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015068246639;view=1up;seq=1. I don't imagine there's a lot of 24-RLs around anymore - probably on locos from the '40s and '50s at museums or industrials.

A nice NS primer including operation with 26L: http://www.blet-ns.com/documents/agreements/utu/2006%20LET%20complete%20Workbook.pdf. Isn't the 30 the same as a 26 turned on its side for desktop application?
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[PWVJer]

..." Rook Disspatcher, OK , O'Malley, Re-lease'em & Go! "
The Hi Line collection/updates includes Builder Cards with air-brake info:
Link:
http://www.thepwvhiline.com/PWVFairbanksMorsePower/PWV_Builders_Card_Back_52_53.html

JR has scanned the entire original FM-H-16-44 (Operating manual P&WV 90,91, 92 and #93.)

We have copies of units 56 & 57-59 as well, all are almost
the same as #50-#55, other than slight gross wt. totals.

Dave,
also uncovered from the P&WV Traffic-Operations-Mow departments. WM/P&WV Trains-85. Sometimes over-looked by the fan interest in the AJ's

Some heavy moves out of C'ville, Imported Iron Ore (Covington ?) for Monessen. Blocks of
hoppers 30-40 cars tacked on the rear-end. With 30 & 40 gon-loads of slab-steel (Sparrow Point)for Mifflin on the Head-end. Several trains well over
8,000 tons, in 1962-63'.

[jayrod]

Good info. 24-RL as installed. May have made upgrades easier, too. Still a mystery of the notice that the pressure maintaining feature was removed from 64 and installed on 71. Did that happen on WM? Did 71s fail and had to be swapped out as it might have been in the lead on the way back to Rook? Hmmmm....
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[WM Historian]

The WM called them "STEEL SPECIAL" out of Cumberland.....only found one day so far the P&WV FM's were dispatched on these........no AJ-1 that day.

Also the #64 showed back up at Cumberland in August 1963 and made numerous trips in and out afterwards.

As for the WM removing the pressure maintaining feature on the #64...the notice from the Western Division Superintedent to his Road Forman of Engines was for their informational use only. I believe this was provided to the WM from the P&WV at Rook.

If there was a mechanical problem, the #64 would have been shipped dead in train......it would have to be a rare incident for them NOT to do this.

I also know from a WM employee that worked at Hagerstown, he stated that they only got 100 gallons of fuel per unit for the return trip to Cumberland & Connellsville back to P&WV at Rook for complete fueling.

David J. Dudjak

[Rich_S]

[Rich_S]

[quote="WM Historian"]
If there was a mechanical problem, the #64 would have been shipped dead in train.

[/quote]

This is pretty much SOP for railroads. If there is something wrong with a
foreign road locomotive, it gets "tagged and dragged" back to a home shop.
The only time we do work on a foreign locomotive is, if there is something
wrong with it that would prevent it from being returned dead in a train back
to it's home shop and then we only make repairs to bring it into FRA
spec's.
_________________
Regards,
Rich S.

[jayrod]

So, I'll go out on another limb (they're getting thin out here) and surmise, correctly or incorrectly, that if #64 had the pressure maintaining feature removed for some reason or the other that it could still be in the consist but it couldn't lead. Hence the notice. Would that be correct?
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[WM Historian]

The logic behind your theory makes sense, that it could not be a lead unit in a consist (4 Units as an example)

The question you would have to ask is, does all units have to be equipped with the pressure maintaining feature or only the lead unit?
It is logical that the lead unit controls the automatic brake for train operations,
hence trailing units would not be needed for this purpose unless an emergency
situation occurred that required any of the trailing units to become the control (lead) unit.

A little more research has uncovered that the DS-24 Brake Valve was converted to the DS-24-MC by use of a newer filling piece from WABCO to make this conversion. It was called Flat Maintaining Filling Piece Portion Part No. 551121

My eye's are glazing over..............

Again the 64 started running thru to Cumberland in September 1963, almost 3 years of being restricted to the P&WV's use.

Is there a air brake expert in the House!



David J. Dudjak

[PWVJer]

11P.M. July 14, 1963, Extra 64, 91, 90 & 55 was engaged in switching
at Monessen yard, and while backing 61-empties(hoppers) up the main for C'ville,
the south rail turned-over(under the #55 unit) just east of the spring switch.
Paper-work suggest that *extra-64-west had just delivered a
loaded Ore-train out of C'ville for Wheeling-Pitt Monessen works.
This same crew? was to shuttle the empties back to the WM @ C,ville.

... have uncovered several big move reports with #64 on the head-end. Timeline: from June 63' to Aug. 64'.

[jayrod]

Huh. Must have been repaired if in the lead either direction. JZ - nice digging!
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[WM Historian]

A tidbit of additional information that I located: WM Office of Trainmaster & Road Foreman of Engines - Western Division

Cumberland, Md. October 18, 1960

NOTICE: All Train and Engineman,

The following Pittsburgh & West Virginia Diesel Units are equipped with Pressure Maintaining Feature: 51,54,55,56,59,64,67

This for your information.

WHR, CNP, HLW - Trainmasters
HD - Road Foreman of Engines

After reviewing, I am certain that this data was supplied by the P&WV to the WM.
Was the 64 reported in error?..... Later corrected to the 71?

David J. Dudjak