The P&WV Hi-Line

[Rich_S]

Jayrod, So it looks like Tru-color paint is going to be a good replacement for Floquil / Polly Scale paint? We'll just have to get use to some new names?

On a side note:
Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather support a company that is trying to produce paint for model railroaders and not a company who is now telling me to use Insignia Yellow as it's the same color as Railbox Yellow or Skin Tone Warm - Tint as it is the same color as Zinc Chromate Primer. Why not drop Insignia Yellow and Skin Tone Warm - Tint and keep the Railroad paint. OK I'm climb down off my soap box now...... :-)
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Regards,
Rich S.

[jayrod]

Don't take the Tru-Color suggestions as gospel yet. I haven't seen the actual colors.

I did run across a few posts elsewhere that the Floquil zinc chromate is a good match for Western Maryland hoppers. If any of those were early 60's Greenville cars, I think we're on to something.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[jayrod]

More info: The WM hoppers were all Bethlehem cars so we may not get a cross reference there.

The saga continues...
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[jayrod]

Back in the mid-fifties, Greenville did a bunch of hopper rebuilds for the NYC. At that time, a good portion of the hoppers were still being painted red as well as black. Thinking that would be a good candidate for the AR hoppers and boxcars, I contacted NYCSHS to see if they had any paint info on NYC's standard freight car reds. They're in the same boat we are on those run-of-the-mill colors. They have yet to find freight car paint specs in the mountains of cataloged and uncataloged documents and drawings. Sure would be nice if somebody coughed up a box of Greenville records.

The search goes on...
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[Rich_S]

Jayrod, until we find out differently, I'm sticking with Zinc Chromate Primer. I haven't had the chance to experiment yet with the paint, but I was think of adding a few drops of BNSF Heritage Orange to the Zinc Chromate Primer just to see if I get a faded look? I was also wondering what a few drops of Oxide Red added to the Zinc Chromate Primer would yield?
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Regards,
Rich S.

[jayrod]

At this time, I'd consider the zinc chromate as the weathered color. I wouldn't add any orange to it. Some red oxide could make the paint look newer. Don't forget that most of the orange-ish looking mass produced models are based on old photos with bad color balance or degraded reds. Red is the fastest color to "oxidize" or bleach out of a print or slide.

In the real world, even though most railroad paints were gloss when they were applied, they were designed to shed pigment, kinda like being self cleaning, as they aged. Hence the flat look after they were in service for a while. Todays paints can't use a lot of the old oxide-based metal pigments and high VOC binders so those colors can actually weather to pink as the current organic pigments bleach out from UV. That's why todays locomotive paints are covered with a clear coat with sacrificial UV inhibitors.

Toss some road dirt and coal dust on it and I think you'd have the road weary color about right.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[jayrod]

Here's a bit more information on the mid 1961 Alphabet Route hoppers:

Still working on a final match for the red color - more inquiries out.

The "Alphabet" hoppers were done at the end of the Greenville rebuild/lease back program. As of right now, we have nine confirmed road numbers for this scheme, four have the stencil tabs brushed out of the large "P&WV": 175 (unknown shop date), 223 (7/61), 305 (7/61) and 568 (unknown). Five have the stencil tab marks left in: 93 (unknown), 380 (6/61), 399 (6/61), 404 (6/61) and 512 (unknown). All but the 175 are viewable in the image archives. As you can tell by the numbering, the cars did not come out in any order other than possibly the easiest to repair came out first. They probably didn't all go to Greenville at the same time as that would have put a big hurt on the hopper fleet.

It is assumed that the initial cars out had the stencil tab marks left in to get the cars out quicker and as they went along, it seems they started to brush them out. Something similar happened with the SOS rebuilds of '60 and early '61, at the beginning of the program.

As I come up with any new data, I'll post it.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[Rich_S]

[quote="jayrod"] As I come up with any new data, I'll post it.[/quote]

Thanks Eric, The info you've provided this far is greatly appreciated.
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Regards,
Rich S.

[jayrod]

After a bit more digging...

The red paint on Greenville Alphabet Route hopper rebuilds was most likely left over pigment from PRR or NYC projects in the fifties. PWV would have gotten a good deal, especially with a cheap, slap-it-on paint job as evidenced by how they weathered badly within a couple years. Acceptable model colors for both PRR and NYC cars in the fifties has been recommended as Floquil/Poly Scale Zinc Chromate Primer. Since that isn't made anymore, another close match would be Model Master #2003. I haven't done swatches of the model paint colors and as of yet, no one has been able to supply prototype manufacturers and color codes. I've gone through the complete set of NYCSHS P&L drawings and there are no references to the late '40's - early '50s freight car red color codes. So... the saga continues.

I'll add info more as/if it becomes available.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod

[Rich_S]

jayrod, Did you ever receive the color chart from Tru-color?
Have you had a chance to check out their color recommendations?
I'm guessing you are aware of the cross-reference chart provided by
Micro-Scale decals?

http://www.microscale.com/Floquil%20Color%20Chart.pdf
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Regards,
Rich S.

[jayrod]

Rich,

I have been in contact with Tru-Color and have a scan of an early chart that does not have all their colors. They don't have an equivalent for Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer. I do have a copy of Microscale's chart. Thanks for posting the link for others that may not be aware of it

One thing to note about the red: the Model Master 2003 may be a wee bit darker. Maybe consider it a freshly painted car if anyone notices? As I've said, I haven't pulled the trigger on purchasing paint and spraying up some swatches so my recommendations at this point are unverified best guesses.

For you large-scalers that use spray cans like Krylon, etc,: Not all zinc chromate primer is the same color. Real zinc chromate is actually a thin, semi-transparent yellowish to pea soup green coating used for corrosion resistance. Pigments (and other stuff) are added so you can see it better when it's applied, usually an iron oxide giving it a brownish-red color. Everyone has different formulations. Back in the day, it was all mixed by hand just before use so that makes even more variation and since it is a primer, there would be no color drift card to match since it will only get painted over anyway.

Also note that Floquil's color is just that - a color representation, not an actual primer.
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Eric Schlentner
Aka, jayrod